It shows that the athenians, who had made one attempt on melos in 427 under nicias, still wanted to round off their aegean empire irrespective of the dorian ancestry of melos. Apr 19, 2012 there are various elements of his history which are very worthy of note. Thucydides on power and justice city university of new york. What were the three virtuous and three vicious corrupt forms of government according to aristotle. Do you agree with the analysis in the melian dialogue about the relationship between strong and weak states, and between power and morality david greer thucydides can be seen as the first great historian, and his history of the peloponnesian war is said to be the catalyst of the realist tradition. Sample solution the post the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue appeared. Thucydides on strength and justice in the melian and. Mytilene, a former athenian ally, had revolted against athenian oppression but lost in a fight against the athenian army. Thucydides had earlier treated the same topic in the debate of war between corcyra and corinth back in book i, but it is the melian dialogue that is most famous. Thucydidess history of the peloponnesian war breaks off before the story is over. To the fairness of quietly instructing each other as you propose there is nothing to object. Pdf thucydides voice in the melian dialogue jessica.
The melian dialogue specifically displays how little regard the athenian thesis shows for justice. Ancient studies history unit 4 study guide thucydides and the peloponnesian war. What happens when a democracy tries to be an imperial power. Mytilene, a former athenian ally, had revolted against athenian oppression but lost in a. The mytilenians appealed to athens enemy, sparta, for help, but the spartans lacked control of the sea and so were unable to help. Mar 12, 20 in book iii of his history of the peloponnesian war, thucydides records the the mytilenian debate, an event that occurred in 427 bc, roughly a year after the revolt against athens and its. Mar 14, 20 the mytilenian debate thucydides 1972, pp. Going by sea to pyrrha, and from thence overland, he passed along the bed of a torrent, where the line of circumvallation was passable, and thus entering unperceived into mitylene told the magistrates that attica would certainly.
Thucydides mytilenian debate cleon diodotus rhetoric. A second debate, which thucydides called the mytilenian debate, took place in order to reassess the course of action that should be taken. In the end melos doesnt agree to pay the tribute and to be an ally with athens so athens takes over melos, kills all the men, and sells all the. Monday 1026 thucydides recreates the debate in athens in 427 bc over how to deal with rebellious former allies in. C thucydides reports it in book three of his history of the peloponnesian war, and uses the events and. This concentration contrasts with the herodotean and the earlier platonic dialogues, in both of which even discussions of a deep philosophic meaning stay closer to the easy colloquialism of everyday language. The melian debate and the sicilian debate mark the turning point in athenian policy garst, 1989, p. Though the melian dialogue is an interesting and important goround between the melians and the athenians, i found the mytilenian debate to be much more engaging. In this video, we will explore the encounter between the political realism of athens and the political idealism of melos through the melian dialogue found in thucydides historical account of the. Friday 1023 thucydides recreates pericles speech in 429 bc after the athenian people started to turn against the war and against pericles decision to retreat behind the walls and fight at sea. Not only is the form of the debate vigorous i couldnt help but think that the audience was saying the ancient greek equivalent of, snap, yo. The mytilenian debate took place in athens during the peloponnesian war in 427 bc and echoed the rising political and moral confusion that overtook athens after mytilene, a city within greece and an ally of athens, had rebelled against them.
The powerful athenian generals and their fleet of 38 ships carrying heavy infantry and archers waited at the shores of melos ready for action as the melians deliberated. Cleon v diodotus, about some members of the city of mytilene revolting, debate whether to put all males to death and enslave female, height of difference bt sparta and athens b3hinge of pelp. Jun 28, 2015 democracy on melos june 28, 2015 by nevillemorley one aspect of the melian dialogue that is mentioned relatively rarely is the fact that the exchange of views between the athenians and the representatives of the melians takes place in private at the request of the latter. History of the peloponnesian war american university of. However, using this structure allows him to clearly delineate the athenian points and the corresponding counterpoints. Mytilene debate and the melian dialogue comparison essay. Notice that thucydides again uses placement of accounts to.
May 12, 2015 in this video, we will explore the encounter between the political realism of athens and the political idealism of melos through the melian dialogue found in thucydides historical account of the. In the mytilenean debate, cleon sounds surprisingly like thomas schelling when he argues that the athenian. One central piece to this discourse is the melian dialogue, a debate. The melian dialogue presents the usual thucydidean concentration of speech and thought. Given the nature of political debate, it is unlikely that the melian dialogue was as clean and backandforth a process as thucydides describes. There is, however, much more to his speech than meets the eye. It is common for him to reveal much of his own opinion through the lines of characters, especially. Introduction to ancient greece final flashcards quizlet.
Read the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue on blackboard as well as the west in question 4 section 3. Mytilene debate and the melian dialogue comparison essay sample. The mytilenian debate in the athenian assembly concerned reprisals against the citystate of. You are already preparing for war, and it doesnt really seem to matter what we say because you are the judges.
Thucydideshistory of the peloponnesian war provides incisive historical analysis of the 5thcentury bc clash between the athenian and spartan alliances. In 416, during the interlude in the peloponnesian war known as the peace of nicias, the athenians decided to attack melos, a colony of sparta which had. Going by sea to pyrrha, and from thence overland, he passed along the bed of a torrent, where the line of circumvallation was passable, and thus entering unperceived into. Apr 22, 2010 a modern reenactment of the negotiations between the athenians and the melians as reconstructed by thucydides, the ancient greek historian of the peloponnesian war taken from the war that never. Pdf thucydides voice in the melian dialogue jessica garcia. Analysis of the mytilenian debate english literature essay.
First it will be shown at the debate at spartan and the declaration of war that athens did not attain its empire though military might. In their speeches, cleon and diodotus each comment on the debate they are having. Thucydides, history of the peloponnesian war my work is not a piece of writing designed to meet the taste of an immediate public, but was done to last forever. The melian dialogue is an excerpt from thucydides history of the peloponnesian war between the powerful athenian empire and the tiny island state of melos. Through his depiction of the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue, thucydides analyzes prioritization of selfinterest, and more specifically, the idea that might makes right. Once the terms of the debate and the subject of the debate have been settled upon, after earlier agreement on what the form of the debate is going to be, we come to the melian dialogue proper. After detailing the armed conflict between the athenians and the spartans and their respective allies between.
Thucydides reports in his history what was said in the debate between the athenian ambassadors and the melian leaders. Though the melians had ancestral ties to sparta, they chose to remain neutral in the war. By comparing the singleton dialogue, the melian dialogue, with another moment in the same author, the equally famous mytilenian debate, i hope to show that. This will now be illustrated through the same extracts use in the preceding chapter, with the addition of the melian dialogue, but focusing specifically on the athenian discourse. The debate consisted of varying opinions, the first of which was presented by cleon of athens. The siege of melos occurred in 416 bc during the peloponnesian war, fought between athens and sparta. Thucydides clearly suggests through the dialogue that the brutality imperialist policy pursued by athens carries the seeds of its own destruction. The mytilenian debate also spelled mytilenean debate or mytilenaean debate in the athenian assembly concerned reprisals against the citystate of mytilene, which had attempted unsuccessfully to shake off athenian hegemony, during the peloponnesian war. Mytilenians revolted against dalian league and thus it. Jun 12, 2017 thucydidess history of the peloponnesian war breaks off before the story is over. Their policy became a policy of coercion limitless expansion. The debate did not really occurthe arguments given by each side were of thucydides own creation. A modern reenactment of the negotiations between the athenians and the melians as reconstructed by thucydides, the ancient greek historian of.
This has a bearing on the question of whether thucydides could have. Why, according to dante alighieri, would a world government need to be a monarchy. Study guide know the main arguments in the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue. Final study guide study guide inr 4103 final exam 1 know. The history of the peloponnesian war by thucydides. Why is this a dialogue rather than a debate as in the mytilenian debate above, book iii. In book iii of his history of the peloponnesian war, thucydides records the the mytilenian debate, an event that occurred in 427 bc, roughly a. C thucydides reports it in book three of his history of the peloponnesian war, and uses the events and the. The melian dialogue thucydides see pages 103 and following of the athens manual here describes a conversation set during the peloponnesian war. This dialogue deliberately recalls the earlier debate, but it is less nuanced than the mytilenean arguments might is right is the brutal but unanswerable trump card of the athenian case the strong do. Although not all athenians agree with the athenian thesis as proposed at sparta and melos, it is still an important theme in the peloponnesian war. The dialectical logic of thucydides melian dialogue by. When in the mytilenian debate athens struggles over a decision to kill all the men and enslave women and children, christian reussmit argues, this represents the moral fracture of athens and as they struggle and ultimately decide not to carry out the plan it becomes clear that.
Melos is an island in the aegean sea roughly 110 km east of mainland greece. The melian dialogue is a conversation where athens uses rhetoric the art of persuasive speaking and argues the point of physis survival of the fittest to persuade melos into paying the tribute. The structure and function of the melian dialogue the journal of. Are there compromises to be made in how a democracy treats others. Notice that thucydides again uses placement of accounts to comment ironically. Written four hundred years before the birth of christ, this detailed contemporary account of the struggle between athens and sparta stands an excellent chance of fulfilling the authors ambitious claim that the work was done to last forever. The following debate called the mitylenian debate by thucydidestook place between cleon and diodotus and addressed key political issues raised by the peloponnesian war. Melian dialogue essay david browns digital portfolio. History of the peloponnesian war translated by rex warner with an introduction and notes by m. Immediately download the melian dialogue summary, chapterbychapter analysis, book notes, essays, quotes, character descriptions, lesson plans, and more everything you need for studying or teaching melian dialogue. Written four hundred years before the birth of christ, this detailed.
Thucydides description of the peloponnesian war 1557. In this dialogue between the athenians and the melians, the athenians have come to this island to take over the melians. The mytilenian debate in 428, the mytilenians revolted against athens, even though they had enjoyed privileged status in the athenian empire. The athenians explain that power dynamics dominate the dialogue, whereas the melians appeal to logic, reason and morality.
History of the peloponnesian war american university of beirut. This may be contrasted with the later melian dialoguewhere athens killed all the men. In particular, it dealt with the contradictions inherent in a democracy that also ruled an empire, and in the rise of demagogues in a democratic state. How can people in the melians position bargain well.
Apr 09, 2012 in thucydides account of the mytilenian debate, the citizens of athens are discussing whether they should put to death all mytilenian men and enslave all women and children. In a previous debate, the athenians already decided continue reading the mytilenian debate. Essay on an analysis of thucydides views on the melian dialogue. Explain the stoic conception of concentric circles of obligation.
Towards the close of the same winter, salaethus, a lacedaemonian, was sent out in a galley from lacedaemon to mitylene. For it proves misleading to say that he is arguing merely from interestand then, on a deeper level, to say that he is arguing from justice. The structure and function of the melian dialogue 75 means,6 and this was hindered by actions like the destruction of melos. Know the main arguments in the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue. Melian dialogue in 416 bce, the athenians, deeming it expedient to conquer the island of melos though they had no quarrel with melos. In the history of the peloponnesian war, thucydides filters the historical narrative of the peloponnesian conflict through a critical perspective. In history of the peloponnesian war book 5, chapters 84116, the contemporary athenian historian thucydides included a dramatization of the negotiations between the athenian emissaries and the rulers of melos. This third level of discussion proceeds as a structure disputation, formal dialectics. An analysis of thucydides views on the melian dialogue the melian dialogue is a debate between melian and athenian representatives concerning the sovereignty of melos.
In fact no passage in thucydides, including the melian dialogue, raises starker questions about the status of political justice. Cleon, a prominent member of athenian society, spoke to defend the previous decision against doubts and to. In book iii of his history of the peloponnesian war, thucydides records the the mytilenian debate, an event that occurred in 427 bc, roughly a year after the revolt against athens and its. M i finley a translation of thucydides history of the wars between athens and sparta with introduction, notes, bibliography, and maps. Thucydides debate is framed in absolute terms, as if there were no read more. The melian dialogue is almost universally read because of its treatment of realism. Thucydides did not witness the negotiations and in fact had been in exile at the time, so this dialogue. In 416 bc, the athenians tried to get the people of the island of melos to join their side in their war with sparta. In thucydides account of the mytilenian debate, the citizens of athens are discussing whether they should put to death all mytilenian men and enslave all women and children. Immediately following the melian dialogue, thucydides introduces the sicilian expedition, which he calls the greatest exercise of athenian might but which was also the greatest debacle in athenian history. This belief, specifically explained at sparta and melos, is the athenian thesis. Lets not make long speeches, lets get straight to the point. There are various elements of his history which are very worthy of note. The mytilenians appealed to athens enemy, sparta, for help, but the spartans lacked control of.
Mytilenian debate v melian dialogue mytilenian debate. Thucydides questions and answers discover the community of teachers, mentors and students just like you that can answer any question you might have on thucydides. Thucydides on strength and justice in the melian and mytilenian. This change is furthered with the melian dialogue where the athenians no longer. One aspect of the melian dialogue that is mentioned relatively rarely is the fact that the exchange of views between the athenians and the representatives of the melians takes place in private at the request of the latter. Molly wancewicz rice university thucydides history of the peloponnesian war provides incisive historical analysis of the clash between the athenian and spartan alliances during the fifth century bce. I couldnt possibly add anything to spencer alexander mcdaniels answer in regards to what is the mytilenian debate, but since ive been repeatedly asked to answer ill do my best to share my thoughts on its relevance to brexit. The mytilenian debate is the first to show the change in athenian discourse. What was the mytilenian debate, and does it have any. They comment on how the audience may react to speeches and what motivations the other speaker.
1459 1440 263 769 411 1112 937 134 199 1146 950 1042 1275 115 801 1118 1396 768 668 1243 1168 133 870 498 599 543 910 86 1350 1449 915 1441 794 198 531 1055 171 154 638 1246